tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post7917001002278870208..comments2024-03-20T19:40:58.078-05:00Comments on The OF Blog: Deficiencies in online book discussionsLarry Nolenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16001420558511460998noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-42023448251795867962010-07-09T16:54:48.772-05:002010-07-09T16:54:48.772-05:00I've heard of Coates and have read a few of hi...I've heard of Coates and have read a few of his writings several years ago, if I recall correctly. I'll certainly look into this shortly - thanks!Larry Nolenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16001420558511460998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-9778064906390269512010-07-09T16:38:29.196-05:002010-07-09T16:38:29.196-05:00I might suggest you take a look at the discussions...I might suggest you take a look at the discussions of the massive American Civil War history tome Battle Cry of Freedom on Ta-Nehisi Coates' blog. Over 100 comments each time around (couple chapters a week), with a number of commenters far exceeding the 2-3 you're talking about. You might want to say that it's Coates' blog and he serves as the authority figure, but he's already said his piece on these subjects a fair bit and barely even participates in these free-for-all threads after kind of an initial burst of his own thoughts.<br /><br />One such discussion: http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2010/06/battle-cry-of-freedom-discussion-group-chs-7-and-8/58896/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-58429527385909458972010-07-09T12:54:56.947-05:002010-07-09T12:54:56.947-05:00Lots of comments...ummm, where to begin?
Fábio,
...Lots of comments...ummm, where to begin?<br /><br />Fábio,<br /><br />At least you all managed to get <i>somewhere</i> with your discussions, even if they petered out in the end. I'll read the link later this weekend.<br /><br />Cindy,<br /><br />If I ever knew the reasons why people just stick to declarative statements, I'd make a killing on marketing how to break them of that habit. Or maybe a few hundred :P<br /><br />Bryce,<br /><br />There is that. Time is an issue, not just the busyness that people experience in their lives (not many are going to be online for hours composing their thoughts), but also knowing that there is such a huge lag here. I waited until I had a bit of time to respond and it's what, 18 hours after the first comments?<br /><br />Liviu,<br /><br />Yes, there is the compulsion factor, but I was also thinking about how much was discussed even before the instructor walked in the room. Something about face-to-face discussions with one's true peers, I suppose.<br /><br />As for list servs and their kin, there is something to that, I think. I do recall reading the old Usenet discussions on certain books and on the whole, it seemed more intelligent and composed compared to the majority of forum and even blog comments these days.<br /><br />Dave,<br /><br />Those are some very good points to keep in mind. Hopefully, there can be more dialogue, both here and elsewhere.<br /><br />Ken,<br /><br />I had been thinking on this topic before that thing you mention happened yesterday, but yes, that is a very apt example. But hey, will I ever manage to go a month without being called "elitist" or "arrogant" on fora like that one? :PLarry Nolenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16001420558511460998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-59202053885263527432010-07-09T11:02:52.802-05:002010-07-09T11:02:52.802-05:00I was mystified just how blatantly resistent peopl...I was mystified just how blatantly resistent people were over at Westeros, but on thinking on it more I suppose I shouldn't have been. <br /><br />I don't participate in on-line book clubs much, for many of the reasons you outline. At least I've seen things, it's far to impersonal to workNethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16963540055415924510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-35501738342397798332010-07-09T09:20:53.104-05:002010-07-09T09:20:53.104-05:00There is another reason. Most people don't thi...There is another reason. Most people don't think outside the margins of "like/dislike", which they mistake for "good/bad" and defend with "everything is subjective, and every opinion counts as much as any other". There is no place in their value systems for such refined takes as "it was horrible, but I loved it", or "it is great, but I couldn't get into it" (my view of McDonald's <b>The Dervish House</b> btw), not to mention authorities. Everyone is equal on the Internetz, unfortunately, and it is very hard to break that attitude. <br /><br />However, even with open-minded people it is harder to do any kind of discussion on-line. It's really quite simple. When you discuss something live, you just throw words around, half-focused thoughts that, in the course of the discussion, coalesce into more complex opinions. When you write a post though, you have to START with a coherent thought, expressed in a written form. That requires not only time, but also concentration and a lot of thinking before you even start writing. Very few people have the patience for it, and so they prefer to just go into surface mode and bash at anyone who actually does the effort.<br /><br />http://rolandscodex.blogspot.com/Simeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11435940295167464898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-69012601285041325302010-07-09T08:57:34.483-05:002010-07-09T08:57:34.483-05:00@Cindy - That's a really good point and I thin...@Cindy - That's a really good point and I think you're right. There is always a group who not only disagrees, but will make you feel like an idiot just for contributing. <br /><br />I know for me, that's what makes me hesitant, but at the same time, it makes me rethink what I'm saying and at least try to write something semi-intelligent. So I guess it has pros and cons.Bryce L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13951278240008332023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-42289926745531466292010-07-09T02:05:37.539-05:002010-07-09T02:05:37.539-05:00I think another issue besides time and energy is t...I think another issue besides time and energy is the general mentality of online people. If I were in real life and said "Such and such book was completely off. I didn't like it because of ......." the chances of someone calling me a moron, idiot, and stupid for what I believe are slim to none because they don't want to be hit upside the head. <br /><br />Online, if someone expresses an opinion on something and someone disagrees there's 40 people waiting to make you feel stupid, call you names, and general just be internet trolls. I wonder if this is part of why no one wants to really get into a discussion. While others don't care what someone else says online it might effect others and no one really wants to deal with that type of thinking.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10285417085465806153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-32938080587373028852010-07-08T23:01:52.029-05:002010-07-08T23:01:52.029-05:00Online dialogue is important, but yes, it often de...Online dialogue is important, but yes, it often devolves when the less-knowledgeable get involved. There is a definite tendency to fear and reject intellectualism. I've had my experience in conversations both online and in person where I was accused of elitism for giving cogent arguments and requiring statements to be backed up.<br /><br />Having sat in high school and university discussion-groups, I noticed the adolescent tendency is to desire to have a say, regardless of how meaningless it might be. The problem is, these adolescents then grow into adults and they never learn that their opinions, if backed by reasoning, logic, and rationality, can actually have some sort of IMPACT. It is almost as if people reject the ability to have actual impact, and they reject the impact others might have on their thoughts. There's no exchange. It's just people sitting in a room talking aimlessly. That's not a discussion, but that seems to be what many people want.<br /><br />Hopefully, however, like attracts like, and blogs like this and others will spur conversations (on- and off-line) and help further the exchange of ideas.Dave Cesaranohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01454928720043301400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-69532076517950336512010-07-08T21:14:25.874-05:002010-07-08T21:14:25.874-05:00I only partly agree - school comparisons are irrel...I only partly agree - school comparisons are irrelevant since there you *must* read and *must* participate, otherwise you do not graduate; also in school there is a sort of "shared" goals and levels - after all you did not discuss graduate 503 class book 1 with grade 8 class so to speak and maybe not even with undergraduate 201; online you just do not generally know who you are talking with unless you restrict to a consistent and relatively small group - which still begs the common goal issues<br /><br />All in all private email exchanges and more generally small mailing lists are more effective for deeper involvement imhoLiviuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04615405766065227026noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-15811314215212697352010-07-08T20:59:55.516-05:002010-07-08T20:59:55.516-05:00@Cindy - That was kind of what I was going for, bu...@Cindy - That was kind of what I was going for, but you put it much better than I did. The effort that goes into it is definitely a big problem. <br /><br />Maybe it's the anonymity as well, which seems to be a pervasive problem on the internet. Lots of people feel like they can do whatever they want and that can lessen the amount of responsibility people have over what they do and say.Bryce L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13951278240008332023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-77850556543751923252010-07-08T20:46:57.370-05:002010-07-08T20:46:57.370-05:00See I write the reviews because there's no one...See I write the reviews because there's no one to talk to about the book. It's my way of saying here's what i liked and didn't like. I wish people would comment more but it's a way for me to express myself and it helps people out. <br /><br />I would love it if people were like "hey what about this" but it doesn't seem as if people have the time, energy to respond to reviews, discussions and such. <br /><br />I don't need praise or pats on the back but when you know X amount of people look at something SOMEONE somewhere has to have an opinion on something! <br /><br />I'm a moderator for a fairly big online book group and it has thousands of members. Only a handful of people discuss the book a month. It's sad. I don't think timing is an excuse for the lack of discussion, I really think it comes down to the amount of energy a person puts into it. I guess typing on the keyboard is just to time consuming in some cases.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10285417085465806153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-62895920955903998972010-07-08T20:37:28.620-05:002010-07-08T20:37:28.620-05:00I think some of the problems are time and timing. ...I think some of the problems are time and timing. Discussions could evolve and grow if people not only had hour upon hour to sit there and discuss, but at least if they could all be there at the same time keeping up with the discussion.<br /><br />Too many times, people will put up an "I liked it, I'm outta here" response because first off, all they did was read the original post. Second, they may have read more, but are only able to respond to that one thing.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm just rambling here, and it does nothing to solve the problem. Just some thoughts.<br /><br />-BryceBryce L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13951278240008332023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-47040738577465864192010-07-08T19:08:31.767-05:002010-07-08T19:08:31.767-05:00That's why I seldom post reviews lately, Cindy...That's why I seldom post reviews lately, Cindy. I've been thinking of it very hard lately - I'm even considering abandoning it entirely in 2011. I feel a very strong responsibility to write a big, fat, good review, and I feel awful by any reason I think I didn't make it. Better to focus on my fiction, then. (Even though I love reading more than writing, as Jorge Luis Borges did.)Fabio Fernandeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069657285755566125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-91378783245079034932010-07-08T18:56:09.776-05:002010-07-08T18:56:09.776-05:00I agree....... (it was so tempting to just type th...I agree....... (it was so tempting to just type that and leave it ;) ). <br /><br />I am a part of several online "book discussions" and one real life one. I don't know if it's because the internet doesn't allow you to draw off the emotions of others or whatnot. But the internet discussions as you pointed out are usually "I like this." "I didn't like this" I'm like WHY, REASONS. I don't know if it's because people are afraid of being called out or if it's just a lack of desire to type things out. Who knows.Cindyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10285417085465806153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-14987534598303877382010-07-08T18:48:46.023-05:002010-07-08T18:48:46.023-05:00Oh, I found the link for our second and last attem...Oh, I found the link for our second and last attempt:<br /><br />http://coloquios.wordpress.com/<br /><br />Hope you like it.Fabio Fernandeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069657285755566125noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-44794617600948701682010-07-08T18:46:15.302-05:002010-07-08T18:46:15.302-05:00I agree with you - though an agreement here wouldn...I agree with you - though an agreement here wouldn't take us much far, huh? ;)<br /><br />Now, seriously. A few years ago, me and a couple of friends tried to discuss serious issues regarding SF and Brazilian fandom - all online, because I lived in Rio, one of them in São Paulo, and the other in Manaus (capital of the state of the Amazon). <br /><br />We only got through to the 4th round of discussions. Recently me and Lucio (the São Paulo guy, who moved to Rio at the same time I moved to São Paulo, go figure) even created a blog to try and resurrect the coloquiums, as we called them - again, we didn't make it much farther. <br /><br />Anywho, I really think we did build something - but, in our case, the Brazilian fandom simply wasn't willing even to read what we were writing, much less to argue. I think now things are beginning to change - but just beginning (egos can be such destructive things, my friend).<br /><br />Even so, I would like to try again - in English, perhaps. Why not?Fabio Fernandeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069657285755566125noreply@blogger.com