tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post7062867121435570077..comments2024-03-20T19:40:58.078-05:00Comments on The OF Blog: Interesting article involving perceived weaknesses of Tolkien's monstersLarry Nolenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16001420558511460998noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-57479762987646674842010-09-14T09:00:10.607-05:002010-09-14T09:00:10.607-05:00I know I'm over a day late in responding, but ...I know I'm over a day late in responding, but I do hope to have a full response up later today or tomorrow. I will note that it is odd having a demon appear so briefly within a setting that (outside of the never-finished <i>Silmarillion</i>) doesn't seem to incorporate Caananite fire demons.Larry Nolenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16001420558511460998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-19370015174870599982010-09-14T08:27:29.149-05:002010-09-14T08:27:29.149-05:00This type of problem arises because Tolkien was no...This type of problem arises because Tolkien was not a novelist first and foremost.<br />The history of the balrogs did exist, but only for Tolkien, not the general public.<br />He knew their fallen origin, their powers, their imprisonment, etc, etc, all spelled out in his histories [which were written before, but not published til after, the success of the Hobbit and LotR].<br />So to Tolkien, I'm sure these creatures were much more fully fleshed than what is just in the novels.<br />Which brings us back to the first point, Tolkien was not a novelist :-)<br />[we got lucky with the Hobbit and LotR, imagine if all we'd had was the Silmarillion and the Histories, ughh]Bookerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15889198370808653959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-28521357141498973262010-09-14T08:24:44.972-05:002010-09-14T08:24:44.972-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bookerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15889198370808653959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-85395577992933284442010-09-13T22:56:58.451-05:002010-09-13T22:56:58.451-05:00I always saw the balrog simply as the means in whi...I always saw the balrog simply as the means in which to extricate the characters from the thousands of orcs surrounding them on every side, virtually guaranteeing instant death for all. And to separate the wise leader from the young novice so the younger character can grow.Scooterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00349856826984371213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-78247806798288649912010-09-13T08:02:53.954-05:002010-09-13T08:02:53.954-05:00Couldn't disagree more with this critic, at le...Couldn't disagree more with this critic, at least re: the Balrog. I think the complete dehumanization of the Balrog is what makes him so badass and readable. The orcs, by contrast, 'fail' more spectacularly to my mind *because* they are semi-human but totally evil. A chaos monster from the bowels of the earth I'm willing to read as totally uncomplicated. But having an entire people, with their own language and customs, depicted as unrelentingly monstrous gets old after a while. I can't even read tose passages about how stupid and cruel the orcs AS A RACE are any more. <br /><br />...still, the phrase diabouls ex machina is a pretty cool coinage.Saladin Ahmedhttp://saladinahmed.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-89990969985895059152010-09-13T07:00:15.415-05:002010-09-13T07:00:15.415-05:00The Lord of the Rings is an imperfect novel to be ...<i>The Lord of the Rings</i> is an imperfect novel to be sure, but this is one of the strangest criticisms of Tolkien I've ever encountered.<br /><br /><i>We could object to Tolkien's inclusion of Bombadil and the two monsters because they are principles rather than personalities.</i><br />Could we? The Balrog is scary, Shelob loathsome, Bombadil ineffably strange, precisely <i>because</i> we cannot relate to them as personalities. They are creatures of legend, thousands of years old - beyond the scope of our personal or moral experience. This hardly makes them alien to Tolkien's world, even before the <i>Silmarillion</i> was published - quite the reverse. Santa turning up in Narnia is incongruous. What's the problem with a Balrog in Moria?<br /><br />Furthermore, viewing these beings as allegories (or metaphors for particular qualities) is to miss the primary point. Shelob can certainly be seen as an embodiment of greed and hunger, but what she is first and foremost is a great big scary monster. <br /><br /><i>Dwarfs, orcs, and elves are familiar enough to most readers to stimulate a response.</i><br />There are two problems with this.<br />I would argue that they are familiar to us because Tolkien made them so, at least in the form that we find them here. But that's open to debate, and not the real flaw in this argument.<br /><br /><i>We are unable to believe in the Balrog because we have no foundation either outside the work or in it.</i><br />Really? You can't believe in the Balrog (or the giant spider) because you've never met one before? This is Gasque's failure as a reader, not Tolkien's as a writer. This line of argument only makes sense if you have refused from the outset to engage with Middle-earth as a sub-creation. Gasque seems to be saying that he had no problem going along with this fantasy so long as it was just some familiar symbols walking around the countryside, but hey - if you're going to start <i>making stuff up,</i> I'm outta here.<br /><br />(And having refreshed the page, I'm in agreement with Jonah. The orcs aren't enough.)Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01146596310417716160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8068873.post-60805056311745691232010-09-13T06:12:25.782-05:002010-09-13T06:12:25.782-05:00My first thought is that it takes balls to write a...My first thought is that it takes balls to write an essay about Tolkien subtitled "The Monsters & The Critics", and that while I'd have to re-read the Beowulf essay, I don't think that disqualifying the monsters because they are "outside the central moral concern of the story" is valid.<br /><br />I also don't think I agree with the author that the orcs were threat enough. Given that, the introduction of suitable villains to lend a sense that there are other great evils in the world is reason enough for Shelob and the Balrog.Jonahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00776591747545219997noreply@blogger.com